Religious References?

[Nomnom]

So I've noticed that a lot of people believe that the religious references are surrounding around Christian/Catholic beliefs. But I believe that it focus's more on Jewish beliefs. I mean, they do believe that Noah was their prophet, and not Jesus. So far in the story there hasn't been any explicit reference to Jesus, and yet the Noah play a major part in the progression of the storyline. I know that it could just be me speculating it a bit too much, frankly Hoshino could just be using exerts from the Old Testament, but it's just the fact that there hasn't been anything relevant to the New Testament.
Eh, you know, just a thought =/.

[Rhode]

Well, Christianity is a religion that built on Jewdaism (spl). It could be either.
I see what youre saying (i've tried to argue your point before to a friend).
The reason many say that DGM is based on Christianity is so they can widen the possibilities. Were it entirely based on the Old Testament, then we cant have any Jesus references etc.

Reading what you said, I've had an idea. What if this story is taking the emotions from the time between Jewdaism and Christianity becomming an entirely separate religion?
Before Jesus (So the Christian teachings go) there were a lot of things going on that displeased God. So Jesus was sent and he told everyone what was right (no slaves, women are equal, look after old etc). Now, many of the people in charge didnt like what Jesus said, because it contridicted their way of life (slave traders, etc). Thats one of the reasons that they were convinced that he wasnt the son of God because the people of that time were convinced that they were doing what God willed.
If Noah (or the Noah family) was around to convey emotion regarding this, would they have raged a war on Christians? Would they have liked God's new favourite person? Would they have accepted what he said and taken heed? As far as the Noah were concerned, what was had almost always been, and they hadnt been told otherwise (stopped listening to God. *gasp* LINK!! They turned away from God, like the original sin!! They were no longer holy now that they had stopped their relationship with God. They became corrupt!).

Now, to the newly formed Christians, the world was rotten. Yes, there were wonders like a rainbow or weird landscapes - but the people were rotten. Men faught and died, homes were ransacked, women and children were murdered, theives stole and truely harmful criminals were never caught. The leaders were corrupt and the military/authorities of the time were easily bribed. The world was wrong and someone had the guts to say what it ought to be - a place of equals, of food and wealth. They were so easily lured into the new belief, their longing for this new world forced them to do as told.

And their prophet died to /save/ them. Jesus died to save everybody - how good was he?! Not only did he want something immpossible to achieve so long as humans are humans (and so long as humans remained with the same nature of being selfish and wanting more than their friends had). Jesus was a nice guy, with a good way of words who died - and everyone believed that, while it was sad, it was in their best interest and /planned/.

This is why most people say its based on Christianity, so thatDGM had the ability to use this Jesus reference if they like.

If Noah is the Noah family, the humans are human, and the new Christians are the Order with their exorcists (who take orders and long for a peaceful world) - why not?
it works in many ways.
Not every human knows about the order, or the innocence. The same way that not all Jews had heard of Christianity.
While some humans (no innocence) want to help change the world, it is an impossible task. The same way that some Jews noticed the wrong-doings, but they couldnt help everyone.
While there arent 12 exorcists (as in, 12 deciples [spl] ), it is highly unlikely that Jesus didnt have any other followers or admirers or people offering support.
With jewdus [spl] - it makes me think of something Lenalee said (which is going to ruin this theory so far). She said that Allen wouldnt betray her or the order [by running off with the Noah].
I dont want to say that she's Jesus, but the betrayal element is in DGM - it doesnt have to stick exactly to what had been recorded.

The last reason I can think of atm for why DGM ought to have some Jesus references, is so, were Allen to be killed, he could be resurrected (as he is the child who is 'loved by God' as Science Cheif told BakaBak [XD Thats what I call them :P]). It's a back up thing.

erm, thats all I have to say for now, but i'd like to add that DGM is likely to be very strongly based on Jewdaism (spl) with a hint of Christianity.

oh, and sorry to have offended anyone. I know that I dont have all the facts about various religions but I hope I wasnt too far off what's recorded.

---------- Post added at 12:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:35 PM ----------

Woah, long reply by me :P

---------- Post added at 12:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:35 PM ----------

ooh, just thought with the idea of Jesus's death being planned.
Cross might have 'planned' for the death of Allen through the revival of the 14th?
The 14th will kill the Earl to save humans. Why this is sad, everyone ie saved which is what Allen wanted?

[TykiMikkFan]

Well actually I was planning to reply to this earlier, but for some reason the activation thingy wasn't working for me until now. Now that I'm finally here, Rhode has already replied. (By the way, I'm new )

Back on topic. I was actually going to point out that they mention the cross a lot in the manga and even in the very beginning, when the detective guy takes off Allen's glove (if you guys can't remeber what was happening, I'm talking about chapter 1, page 20) the detective says, "Doesn't it hurt burning a cross into your hand," and Allen later says, "This cross is an anti-akuma weapon." They also mention the cross in a lot of other chapters (or it shows up) and the cross is basically the symbol of Christianity since Jesus died on it. But after I read it what Rhode said, I realized that she did make a good point. Her theory does make a lot of sense. It would also explain why the cross is mentioned a lot/shows up.

Anyways, I'm not exactly sure what religion this is based on, but I do think that Christianity has something to do with it.
__________________________________________________ ______

Actually, now I do believe it is based on christianity. Go to chapter 47, page 16 of the manga. In the section of the Head General and also in the section of What is the Dark religious Organazation, it talks about the vatican. The vatican is the central governing body of the Catholic Church which is a branch of Christianity. So I suppose that it is based on Chrisianity, unless I've been mistaken about something.

[Nomnom]

Ahhhhhh, I'm such an idiot =.=
Hehe thank you for clearing that up. I really should remember the allusions to the cross, the Vatican and also how Allen is a Jesus-like character... in a way.
Now I realize there are New Testament allusions, but it just focus' more on the Old Testament.
So, like Rhone-san says, both religions could be put in there.

[Rhode]

Woah... I've never had people agree with me. I was readying myself for a heated debate while this page loaded! XDD

Lol, reading my post back, I have no idea how that's convinced anybody. I just sumed up my view on what people might have been feeling around that time, and I honestly cant remember all the links I wanted to comment on between my theory and DGM. XD

I forgot about the cross showing up. That's kinda left no room for debate, eh? XD

[TykiMikkFan]

Now we can debate on whether or not its based on a specific branch of christianity or even if you still think its a different religion xD

[Rhode]

XD Now is the wonderful time to test my knowledge. I only know the sterotypes and a little about the CoE and CC in general!

Well, DGM hasnt really shown any right or wrong, in the sense that is debated today?
It's not like Kanda and Lavi are going to argue about abortion or if prisioners ought to be treated with respect (Quakers).

In many ways, there is an element of the Catholic Church (CC) with their very strict rules and interpretations regarding the Bible.
But there are also some characters who are very open minded (or at least, forced to become open minded upon meeting Allen), with the general feeling that 'this is unacceptable...unless this situation..' which is the feel I get from theChurch of England (CoE).

To uncomplicate that a bit, for me, the CoE said something similar to this;
We feel that abortion is never acceptable unless the situation suggests that this is the best option, ie rape victim, unable to support the child, puts the mother in danger (and lists all other possible excuses).
While the CC's stance is very much, 'Never acceptable, but only if the mother is in danger and so it's the lesser of two evils.' and thats it.

Not to offend believers, but the CoE seems like it struggles to make all of it's followers happy and so, it doesnt really have a stance that actually agrees with any single persons belief. Instead, they seem to gather all possible ideas and place them as one.
The CC is much stricter, and while there are some people within the CC that disagree with some of their teachings, the CC stands its ground.
In that sense, I'd say the CC is a much more likely candidate.

However, we have had no mention of Purgatory (which is a mainly Catholic teaching) which originates from Dante's fictional book regarding a man who took a tour of hell and it's nine pits full of sinners, like the unbaptised, the lustful, the gluttonous etc. Although, nowadays, Purgatory moreso means that only Catholics, when they die, go to a place to become more holy before being sent on to be with God, not necessarily a place of tourture as Dante's works originally were.
Which points back to CoE.

Of course, DGM could be based on them as a mix. Or maybe just hosino's own interpretation?

But I forget the denominations of Christianity, which are groups who interpret the bible differently.
I'm not that sure on their beliefs, but I'll skip on to some groups i've heard of, that might not be offically denominations.
Firstly, I think of some crazies in America who tried to burn the Koran (spl). But these people only choose parts of the Bible that back up their beliefs, and ignored various parts that continuously mention to love others, to not persocute (spl) the 'alien in their land.'
then there's a church near me, that has taken the Bible and mixed it with other religions, forming this super denominationthingy. But unlike the CoE, and taking every possible rational oppinion, their leaders have read through many holy books and chosen what applies today, but have determined that Christianity is to be heavily based on. However, I see none of their forms of worship or beliefs mirrored in DGM.

But in DGM, we dont see people praying... I havent heard of their afterlife, except that whole - save the akuma - thing.
There's a god, but he doesnt do much... in the begining, Allen assured Moa that her sister and her sister's husband that they had gone to heaven together... although, Moa was the one who asked, and Allen just said 'Yeah'...
So did he mean it? Was that what he believed? Is it true in DGM?
So does DGM have a heaven, and thus a hell? Do they have a purgatory, or a devil? since the Earl is actually called Adam, is there an Eve? (See a thread on this forum called Noah Names)...

but I only know a little bit about Christianity, so I cant really help determine much about denominations...
Oh, and I've completely missed out protestants from this, too... but the buildings the Order picks are a bit too... glamourous to be protestant? (CC believe they can have images of Jesus, even though the bibles against it... and Protestants like to keep things a bit plainer [less distractions from God.. or at least, thats how it was explained to me. XD])

Hope I offended no one again, And i'll keep adding this part when talking about religion - Which is funny, you know? Why can we not care when offending people about their beliefs of who's the coolest person, or best band - yet worry so much about offending another's God? XD

ahh, I'll stop now, I'm in a philosophical mood... which might be good when I find that thread about tyki again.. XDD

[kalla]

Now we can debate on whether or not its based on a specific branch of christianity or even if you still think its a different religion xD

Well, one big thing is it talks about the Vatican and Pope and many of the "clergymen" we see in later chapters are dressed similar to Cardinals of the Catholic Church. (I was raised Catholic...Latin Mass and all.) Although, just as Christianity was based upon Judaism, other branches of Christianity were from original Catholicism. Honestly, I think there are several religious influences present. Kanda's background if very obviously NOT Christian. Cross's chanting and the Skulls appear to perhaps be a different "religion"--perhaps Pagan or something that existed before what is thought of as more "modern" religions? (Although isn't it stated somewhere that Cross's use of those techniques to be forbidden...that is similar to the history of the Catholic Church as well.)

In fact, I would say in terms of the Black Order, it reminds me far more of Catholicism in terms of appearance and structure than Protestant. Also, now that I'm thinking more on this, the Catholic Church presents things in black and white that once you start to get deeper into the religion they become gray, like ghosts, demons, and possession. Go to any priest and officially they will not "believe" someone is possessed, but in rare occasions they do exorcisms. The best way to defeat evil is to not acknowledge its existence type of thing. Often certain "practices/thoughts/whatever" are viewed as the devil's influence, encouraging evil thoughts, or an over-active imagination by clergy. Only to find later that isn't exactly what they believe. That is coming from a personal matter, but from that I see a similarity in that the Catholic Church, like the Black Order, doesn't officially admit the existence of certain beliefs or its affiliation with other perspectives. Hopefully that made sense...

Another point, original sin. In Catholicism a baby must be baptized so that if s/he dies, they are free of it. (really crappy explanation--sorry) Kind of like the Earl presenting humans with calling a loved one back and creating Akuma...it's kind of like pushing the point of what humans really are (or can be). That whole scenario reminds me greatly of a baby, who is innocent and has not done anything terrible, still being guilty of original sin because it is human, and born of humans. (the Akuma)

The CC is much stricter, and while there are some people within the CC that disagree with some of their teachings, the CC stands its ground.
In that sense, I'd say the CC is a much more likely candidate.

Funny you say this...I left the Catholic Church because I felt they were changing too much to cater to popularity, at least in the United States. :P Although I understand why you said that for the sake of the argument and agree with your sentiments in comparison.

[Rhode]

It's nice to have feedback from someone who knows more about Christianity.

so we've come to the concluesion that DGM is based on the Catholic Church... What else to say? XD

I like your idea of the Akuma... but isn't it different because they can no longer turn back to God, because they've lost their free will?
Even the most forgiven human, could be pulled back and put in an Akuma. They're not at fault. They could pity themselves, or ask God's help/forgiveness, but suddenly, once a soul is in an akuma - it cannot be forgiven and return to God? Unless the akuma is destroyed by an exorcist, who uses innocence? (think through these words...)
darn, what is the true purpose of an akuma then? (eeh, off topic! XD)

[kalla]

Well, have they entirely lost their freewill? Eliade seemed to have at least some semblance of it. So did Mana when he cursed rather than immediately killed Allen (although he probably would have soon after). And Cross's modifications definitely seemed to give them a way to fight. So there are examples of remnants of free will at least.

As for their existence...yeah, that's what I mean. In the Catholic Church an unbaptized newborn still carries original sin, much like the Akuma, even though it did not choose its path intially, would carry the sin of its existence so to speak. (That it is a weapon to kill and how it returned to Earth.) I think Allen is fighting the Order in that belief. The Order tends to think of Akuma as not of God while Allen thinks of the machine as the Akuma and the soul as still a human soul. It doesn't necessarily mean that the baby (Akuma) cannot return to God. Augustine's version does state that they cannot, but even then it leaves a way for the child to be happy or at peace. And omg...I just realized something...

Didn't the Earl call Allen Augustine Clown or something at one point? Augustine argued against a doctrine or belief that stated people were capable of living a "pure" "holy" (good is such a crappy word) life without the assistance of God, more or less saying that God was not the maker of all that is good because man can create it. Augustine felt the opposite and that humans can only be saved by God's grace. He felt original sin was passed from descendants of Adam because it is passed from parent to child through spiritual procreation. That the child was more or less created of the parents, and not a true birth thus carried the sin of its ancestors. He also believed the Church was the Spiritual City of God, not just an Earthly place (I'm thinking of the Ark). Perhaps what Allen thinks he's fighting for is really something else. I'm going to have to mull that over a bit...I don't know why I didn't make that connection before. When the Earl first said that I remember thinking "wasn't that a Saint?" but that was it.

The true purpose of the Akuma, which the Earl has alluded to that we don't really know, could be deeply rooted in the religious background...or it could be not at all. I want to know what a truly evolved Akuma is. I wonder if it is a human or something along the lines of it evolving into a "pure" or more "God-like" entity. Or maybe the Akuma are purgatory of some sort that at the end leads to a true salvation or something? Or maybe they're just evil weapons the Earl uses...but the more I read the less I feel they are purely evil. (Not saying they aren't used as weapons and are angels or anything.)

**Edit after looking up some facts**

Augustine helped with the idea of "Just War." Along with St. Thomas Aquinas. The tenants were as follows:

* Anger is a desire for revenge and thus righteous anger should be provoked by evil. It should then basically set right what the sin has destroyed or damaged and restrain the sin from reoccurring. Unjust anger seeks to do harm for its own reasons, not for the reasons of God. (Perhaps Allen going after the Earl thinking he has killed his friends rather than to do "God's Work"?)

* Peace is the fruit of righteous anger.
* All citizens and governments should work to avoid war, thus it is only acceptable if all other attempts have failed to engage in war. They must comply with the following to be considered morally good:

1. the act itself must be good
2. it must be done with good intention (see anger)
3. it must be necessary

*Forbidden acts:

1. acts against or mistreatment of non-combatants, wounded soldiers, and prisoners
2. genocide
3. indiscriminate destruction

With that added...if Allen or Neah truly does have ties to Augustine or the philosophies he stood for, I can kind of see what Tykki meant about having the troublesome 14th's memories or whatever he said. It would paint Neah as a very righteous personality that would work to follow what he felt to be God's wishes exactly. It would also make sense that he would respond so strongly against anything he felt was "un-just." Hmmm...more research is in order I think!