Religious References?

[Rhode]

But was Eliade the trapped soul's personality? Why was the soul within Eliade crying when Allen saw it?

Augustine was mentioned in another thread about that. What happened was that the Earl said that Allen was like the Augustine Clown that picked on the other clown (cant remember). I knew of Augustine aswell, but apparently, an Augustine Clown is the type of clown in a circus that is the one that throws the pies etc, while the clown that the Earl compared himself to, was the one that had pies thrown at him. I believe that the Earl was saying how Allen keeps picking on him, making a fool out of him, but the attacks didn't actually harm him.

I think there might have been some subtext in this bit so mine is probably not the only interpretation. By subtext, I mean the bits in Japanese that say about status, emotion etc.

Still, you're links and knowledge of Augustine is interesting, and there are obviously many similarities between Augustine and Allen. Have you had any more ideas on how else they may link (I dont know much about him, and finding some information's been a bit too repetitive so far).

Still, if the Akuma aren't just the Earl's weapons and are slightly good, what does that make the Earl?

Perhaps Allen going after the Earl thinking he has killed his friends rather than to do "God's Work"? - do you mean that Cross stopped Allen from being unjust? Even if it was for the wrong reasons, ending the Earl (even though Allen wasnt strong enough) is surely a good thing?

That's an interesting idea about their links to Augustine and Tyki's comment's true meaning... It's better than what I was thinking, and is more complete... So I'll be taking that idea for myself then

[kalla]

That's a good question--I'm not sure if it would have been the free will of the Akuma or the soul inside it for Eliade. I would probably lean more towards the Akuma as it was still self-serving, but it still means the Akuma was making a choice to 1. stay with Crowley and 2. not go killing the entire village. I think the soul, even if it was what was in love with Crowley, is crying because of its suffering. Just because it wasn't killing constantly doesn't mean it wasn't suffering for all that it had killed to get there. I kind of feel the souls are tormented by the chains (more figurative than literal sense) because it is the suffering that fuels the Akuma's energy. In other words it is the suffering not the soul itself that is the energy source.

I did not know that about clowns. I never went to carnivals or circuses as a child, so thank you. I still think the similarities and ties are a bit too strong to Augustine...and it does make me wonder where the circus term came from...hm... Also, doesn't the Earl make that reference before he really knows Allen is fourteenth? I guess I felt he had suspicions, but wasn't sure until later. Or maybe that was when he realized it. I probably missed something.

Yes, that is what I mean by Cross stopping Allen. He told him he cannot defeat him with hatred I believe? If there is a connection to the idea of Just War and D. Gray-Man, winning a war for the wrong reasons is still wrong. The Church said as much with WWII and the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and that is one reason it hasn't happened since and why there is concern over it. Cross's statement I think is said for two reasons. First, he does care about Allen and knows he would take that regret with him to his grave. Second, in essence it would not truly end it. Yes, the Earl would be dead, but the new Earl would be reborn inside of Allen for having acted on hatred so to speak. The cycle would continue rather than end. To win Allen would have to wield God's anger and nothing else...maybe that's what innocence is--God's anger. Who knows...that kind of makes my brain hurt.

I'm not sure I would say the Akuma are good exactly--they just exist. The Earl has a point, they represent the suffering of humanity. But they represent humanity suffering because they do not trust in God. From some aspects, if the belief was strong enough there would be no Akuma because they would believe the soul to reside with God in Heaven. It is partially a human creation, not just the Earl's in my opinion. But the Akuma itself is neutral--just a machine, at least at first. The soul inside it that is suffering is still human. (That sounds like a Terminator type theology lol) I don't personally feel the Earl or Noah are "bad," but I don't see them as "good." I don't see any of this in black and white except Allen--he depends on his world to be black and white to make sense of it.

Let me know if you have thoughts on Augustine or Tykki's comment...sometimes an outside perspective sees things clearer or can bring out new ideas. ^_^

[kalla]

Just doing another post after looking some things up. I had no idea the inner life of clowns was so structured...can't say I didn't learn anything today.

Pierrot, which is what the Allen has referred to the Earl as, is often in love with Columbine...who usually chases after Harlequin. While starting as just a minor personality in a performance (he was a servant originally), he became kind of an icon of the struggle of the common people longing to be part of the bourgeois world. He is also depicted as very naive, downtrodden, and a hopeless romantic. Thus he is often the butt of the jokes because of his nature. (He is Harlequin's fool.) In art he's often portrayed as a lonely character and associated with the moon. He is associated with elegance, art, and grace.

Auguste is a prankster and is below the white-faced clown in rank. Auguste usually has difficulty completing the tasks the white-faced clown has asked of him. (I have found contrasting information on how the white-faced clown evolved, but it seems mostly to say from Pierrot.) The Auguste would appear at the last moment to mess up the white-faced clown's plans in a humorous manner. The Auguste gets the butt of the jokes when paired with the white-faced, but is the one in control with other clowns. The Auguste did not exist until the 19th century in their current form (They weren't around when Pierrots were paired with Harlequin and Columbine). Their purpose is to be a clumsy fool in contrast to their white-faced counter part.

From what I read, the Harlequin and Auguste seem similar, but I didn't read there was a specific connection between the two types anywhere so there is probably a reason. If we assume the Earl is a Pierrot and Neah is an Auguste...where does that leave our story? I would really hate to think that it's all based on clowns lol. However, I don't think the references are chance either. It could be the Earl is just saying that the Auguste has showed up to ruin his plans again. Then again, what is the real meaning behind it all and what plans are being ruined?

Perhaps this is a point where we must think of Allen and Neah as two separate people. Neah is the Auguste, not necessarily Allen. This would make sense with the Earl's talk of ending the first act and such. (As the Pierrot was derived from theater.) Hmm...maybe Neah is more of a Harlequin, or Allen is...but that's not what he called Allen. And if they were staying true to that original theatrical production, that would mean he was trying to prevent Harlequin from finding Columbine. But if Neah was truly an Auguste, his existence is to be the white-face's fool. He did say he wanted to kill the Earl to be him or something...which would be true if there were no other white-faced clowns. Still...that's kind of a let down if it's all based on clown drama...like we were watching a play ourselves lol.

I think I want to go back to theories of the Order and Augustine...seems less confusing lol. I don't know...I'm not sure what I think at the moment.