Is it Right? Is There a Good Side?

[Mikki Walker]

After getting bored over winter break and reading D. Gray-man again, I started to really pay attention to the things the Black Order did for the 'sake of the Holy War.'

-Lenalee was taken from her brother and forced to be an exorcist (at first).
-Alma and Kanda where (correct me if I'm wrong) taken back to the HQ after they died, had their brains taken out of their bodies and implanted in new bodies, and forced to synchronize with innocence, unable to die because of the seal.
-the whole third-exorcist plan used Alma, even after all he went through, as a 'womb' by implanting a shard of the Akuma egg and implanted his cells into normal CROW members.

Exorcists aren't even really seen as real people! They're just pawns/tools to be used in the 'Holy War.' Just think how Finders are viewed if exorcists are tools. By contrast, if you look at the Noah they behave like a family and seem to care for one another.

-As Skin transforms, the Earl cries
-When Skin dies, Road and Tyki cry (though this could just be the Noah in them. Not sure).
-After Tyki is cut by Allen's sword, Road turns even more homicidal.

What I'm saying is:
Is all this (what the Black Order does) okay as long as humanity is saved? It looks inhuman it me personally.
If we over look the fact we're humans ourselves and stereotypically want us to survive and just look at the actions of both Noah and the Order, who is the good side? And for that matter is there ever a good side in wars?

Sorry for the ramble, but I'm curious as to what other people think. Cross' whole 'there's another side to this war' got me thinking. So, what do you think?

[kalla]

I think that is one of the main themes in D. Gray-man and it is a much debated topic today. Is the theory of a "Just War" ever possible and is it truly justified? I posted on it in a thread about the religious background because it is based on Roman and Catholic philosophy. First the decision to go to war must meet certain criteria and then how it is carried out must meet certain criteria. (And I apologize for length...this is something about which I feel strongly.)

To go to war there must be: just cause, comparative justice (that the injustice of one is greatly outweighed by the ceasing of suffering), competent authority (a leader declares war), right intention (to end suffering not material gain), probability of success, last resort (peaceful methods have failed), porportionality (what is gained must significantly outweigh the destruction).

During war: distinction (only combatants are harmed/fight, not non-combatants), porportionality (attacks must stand to gain much more than they could destroy), military necessity (the minimum number of force is used), fair treatment of PoW's (do not torture or mistreat them), no means malim in se (soldiers may not use methods considered evil or unpredictable).

It's kind of like a moral guideline for an unmoral, in my opinion, act. For me, if you take WWII the suffering needed to stop. I know the destruction it caused to its soldiers who witnessed and experienced events on both sides of the globe. I did not fight, but several in my family did and I did a research paper on just this topic because of it. Certainly what was going on needed to stop, but at what cost? I've been to Normandie, France and seen the rows of crosses (the orchestra I was in was invited to play at the anniversary of Normandie's liberation) and the sheer death toll was enough to make me cry. The other details, like my grandfather's experiences, I cannot get into for they are far too gruesome. But he was sixteen.

The answer I arrived at was there is no good or truly just war. No one truly "wins." That is only for people who see the world in black and white from the confines of their imaginary ivory tower. Likewise, sometimes it is the only answer or at least the only one we know of to solve a problem. There are many problems with this answer, but I can't deny the concentration camps and German occupation stopped. I am of the hope that humanity will eventually find a better answer, but I know it will not be in my lifetime.

The thing people forget about war is there are two sides and they are not good and evil. If a war has started hopefully it is trying to end the suffering of many or the injustice of many, and not a dispute over land, religion, money, things, power, etc. Often wars are fought for the wrong reason and people get so caught up in blame they lose sight that suffering is on both sides during a war. Those fighting the war often care less about what their leader's reasons are and more about dealing with their own bouts of moral issues during their experiences. However, those in leadership positions must carry the weight of their decisions...the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were done very consciously and I'm sure everyone who had input and especially President Truman, struggled with their decision and its aftermath on some level. Leaders choose to go to war; soldiers determine how it is fought.

I think it is perhaps human nature to be unwilling to admit the other side is suffering as much as yours because to have that compassion would destroy your will to fight. But the truth we all come to in the end is where there is war, there is horrible and unjust suffering. People often commit inhumane acts and no one should be either the victim or placed in a position to commit them. But once war begins, the tenants of a "Just War" go by the wayside and it becomes about winning and blame, at the expense of everyone.

Specific to the Black Order...no I do not find their actions justified. However, I do feel their acts to be consistent with other wars in humanity. I personally like that the Noah are not depicted as truly evil or dark, or at least not completely void of love and emotion. It makes people uncomfortable, but that is the truth in a real war. The soldier who lost his life and was so young with such a bright future and is missed dearly, has a counterpart on the other side. And the leaders you fight for, The Black Order, are not as righteous as they appear. It IS a contradiction, it IS uncomfortable, but it is TRUE; nothing is black and white.

[JunTheLInx]

This is a good question.
When you are a kid, you lerned that things are good or evil, but the reality isn't this simple.
Both sides have their reasons to fight, and both had decided that the result is more important than the ways to obtain it.
I think that they had chose the lesser evil, instead of good.
There's no doubt that the idea of lesser evil is very different for Noah and Order.

[Deak.]

The gray area between good and evil is what makes D. Gray-man such a good manga. If you think about it hard enough, it's as easy to justify the clan of Noah's actions as it is to justify eating meat. They see humans as below them, because they are stronger than humans. But they care about each other while the Order does terrible things for the sake of the war. You cannot deny the goodness of the protagonists, but ti's easy to see the organization they serve as cruel.

[Slay CLay]

The Noah care about each other and consider all humans below them, while the Black Order consider their Exorcists to be tools and they want to save the all of humanity (funny how their views are opposite of each other). To answer your question about a good side in war, I think there is not. War hurts both sides, which brings me to D. Gray-man. A war between Noah and Innocence, I think that both sides are suffering in their own way.

And Cross's idea gets me wondering too. He didn't say it was a good side, but every time I think of that I assume that it is a little bit better than the way the Order handles things.

[kalla]

Another take on Cross's comment could be just wanting to inform Allen, perhaps to reach the conclusion that there is not a true good or bad side, to help him deal with what choices await him?

[Tye Yell]

GOOD question man...I think that whoever is in charge of the Black Order is really wack. The leaders views is that sacrificing "few" people for a billions of people is good. They will Send out people in the front lines to save humanity. The Noah doesn't think humanity is worth saving. But who gave those leaders the right to do that!! U cant just force kids to leave their homes to fight, you cant kill kids or do experiments on them! Even though there cause is good: saving humanity. They should be the ones participating in the experiments leave the f'n kids alone and don't ask little kids to save your grown behind!

But the Noah are right and wrong...Humanity doesn't need to live any longer even the babies will turn out like the grown-ups(with few exceptions leenale and the science department people) they will turn out nasty(Allen was raised by the brother of a Noah so he turned out perfect)! The Noah are the chosen ones that's why they can reincarnate and have powers normal humans don't have. BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT they are wrong because if they were right why would innocence exist? Why would demon fighting weapons exist? Why would the hearth exist?
All i know is that both sides have good points and I'm not choosing sides until I know more about the 14th(who rocks by the way!!)