Allen is the 14th, not his host

[KidWicked13]

I mean there's been no mention that Noah can implant their memories into people. Noah jump bodies after death by reincarntaion. Plus, the whole Mana-Allen-Nea dynamic makes it seem off. I don't think that Nea likes either side, he just believes Exorcists to be the better of the two. Compare to how Allen wishes to save both humans and Akuma.

And Cross's comments about how Nea implanted his memories? Let's face it...Cross pretty much misdirects and even flat out lies to further his goals. I mean, he implied anyone could've steered the Ark (to Allen's face anyway), when we know only Allen can. Maybe he lied to keep Allen from a truth that he wasn't ready for.

Interestingly, I want to point out something I just noticed. Allen is pretty much an anagram of "Nea ll" Imagine the two "L"'s not as "l"'s, but as the roman numeral for 2. I admit it's a stretch, but it's very coincidental that the 14th's real name is three letters, while when the ll is taken out of Allen's name, there are three letters. Furthermore, these three letters make up the 14th's name. Besides, what the hell kind of name is Nea? And I feel like Nea can be presumed to be his non-Noah name, seeing as Mana is not stated to be a Noah, yet refers to the 14th as Nea.

Thoughts on the Nea/14th-Allen dynamic?

[Manda]

Why ofcourse I have thoughts! And ofcourse, they are eccentric. -Grins.-

Ofcourse, Cross could have lied about the memories being implanted into Allen, but I highly doubt this. Why? Because of his innocence, and the various Allen has had regarding Mana. The Noah, and the Exorcists are from different sides of the track, and cannot mix directly, as the innocence destroys the Noah. This leads me to another theory, that you, yourself made me ponder!

But first, I would like to explain how Cross was not lying when he said that anyone could use the ark. You see, if you remember the story of the Ark, and the 14th from way back you will understand where I am coming from. There were two Noah gifted with the ability to use the Ark. The first child, and the 14th. The Fourteenth left the Noah, and gifted a human with this ability to use the ark.

Presuming that this took place quite a long time ago, and that we have no clue on who this person could of been [aside from assuming that it could be Mana, given his connections] it could be anyone who posses this ability. And, if one were to assume that this took place a long, long time ago as portrayed by the Earl, and that this ability was passed down along family genes, then there could be a number of normal/non exorcist people with the potential to posses the ability to control the ark. Which also, logically, supports the theory that the memories were implanted within Allen. How could he gift someone this ability? Hmm. By implanting himself within the person mayhaps? Like the true defination of an avatar. [And not those blue phoonies.]

But, a more logical reason why I love Cross, and the original thought I possessed was, that anyone could be gifted these abilities through an avatar like state. Much like how a kitsune was believed to be able to possess a person. The person becomes no more then a vessel, carrying the spirit in question within them.

This is one theory I believe on how the Noah are reborn, and only manifest at certain times. They could be normal, ordinary people up until this sleeping essence awakens, and takes over the body. If you remember way back, to when we saw how Skin was born, the Earl had to convince him to accept this. He had to be a willing host to the Noah, and give in. Hmm, interesting thought there, huh?

So in essence, they could all be implantations, people possessed by the essence of the Noah, whose souls are slowly devoured over time. Would explain the way they are completely normal up until their.."Awakening".

This also explains what happened with Allen when the 14th "Awakened" inside of him. He told Allen that he would be taking over, and that Allen would be gone. For a few moments, this seemed to be the path that the auther had chosen. However, Allen did not "give in" to these demands, and resurfaced as himself in the concious world. He was not a willing host to the essence of the 14th, and therefore he could not "become the 14th".

Considering this theory, I would suggest that each of the Noah are their own being, and entity. They will always remain who they are, regardless of who they posses, even if their appearance changes. Instead of a suggestion of total reincarnation, they implant themselves in an unborn child [The most successful form of avataration], or a person who is vulnerable [like how the Earl approaches those suffering great loss] and then lay in wait until such a time as it would be easiest to completely take over their host. Ofcourse, this is all speculation. But an interesting possibility to ponder.

This theory, would also allow our beloved hero Allen the ability to channel the abilities of the 14th, while remaining the dominant inhabitant of his own body. ts also possible, that given these circumstances, that the 14th would be able to transfer his essence to a more suitable host. Much like how the innocent chooses a suitable partner. This could explain how Mana was able to implant the memories of the 14th within Allen, without being the 14th himself. Hmm hmm hmm.

All in all, whatever theory may be correct, I believe that Allen with follow in the 14th's footsteps and betray the Noah in favor of the human race. He has done this before, and I believe that he "hid" himself in Allen in order to keep his presence a secret from the Noah. And yes, I do believe very strongly that he was hiding himself from the Earl.

I don't know why the 14th defected from this tight knit family, or what happened that caused his great epiphany, but the fact remains that he left them, betrayed them, and went to the other side of the tracks. I know, that no matter how powerful I was, that I would most definately hide, and where better to hide [or assist the other side] then to reside within the Noah's natural enemy.

[KidWicked13]

Good points, but look at Skin. He has seemingly wholeheartedly accepted his inner Noah but remained Skin up until his final strike at Kanda.

If the Noah can be implanted, why haven't the Noah just implanted themselves as close together as possible. I mean, Wisely's rebirth as a Noah seems to imply that the Noah's awakenings are purely by chance. And Skin's too. I mean after he awakened, the Earl and Road found him quickly. But if Noah could implant themselves, why not share who their next host would be with their leader/father to make the process easier?

Not to be a jerk, but in the most recent chapters, the Earl tells Allen that he isn't the host of the 14th, but the 14th himself...granted it's possible the Earl is lying, but while he's not exactly forthcoming with his plans, he hasn't told an outright lie that I can recall...

[Alice_Walker]

I was confused about when Earl had said that, then Cross saying about meomirs. It's confusing, but I just reread and watch D.Gray-man to understand. Allen might have to chose who side he might be on, or fend off the "two monster" in side of him. It was kind of hard to understand, but I think I understand what's happening with the 14th and Allen.

[Rhode]

I think when the Earl said about Allen being the 14th, I think that the Earl is just thinking that the 14th will quickly win over Allen and Allen's body will host the 14th. I think the Earls just meant that in the end, Allen is going to be the 14th and seeing as thats imminent, he might as well plan around that.
I think Cross was deffinately holding something back when he was talking to Allen, but the implanting part I believe is probably true, even though I cannot fathom how.

so yesh, I have nothing more to add at the moment :P

[Alice_Walker]

Isn't the 14th's name Neah? I was just remeber his name and how he is Mana's brother

[Sinamon]

interesting discussion...one rhode and i have been having in another thread (the fanfiction thread, of all places lol).

first off, i wanted to clarify something: it's the 14th that implanted his own memories into allen, not mana. i think that confusion comes up a lot. chapter 167: the 14th didn't have time to dwell on who or when, he chose who was closest and that was [allen].

the whole idea of the noah reincarnating is an odd one. that implies that they do perish and come back again later. so why do they die? don't they have the ability to live forever? wasn't it rhode who said they can't be killed? or does it mean that they do die natural deaths (as in their human bodies die) but they can't be killed voluntarily in terms of their souls? if they need to be reincarnated, it MUST mean they perish at some point, at least bodily. but why do some naturally reincarnate over generations while the 14th chose to pick out a person in order to implant himself?

it's obvious that the 14th is not your prototpyical noah in various ways. he was not a part of the original 13 noahs, first of all. and he's more like a rogue/renegade noah since he goes against the rest of his family in the most serious way and wants to kill the earl....to become the earl himself...to become the new head of the family. it can be assumed that he is going to reincarnate in an unorthodox manner as well. he won't wait to be naturally reincarnated; he wants to come back ASAP to kill the earl. he doesn't want to or can't wait for the cycle. and we have to wonder, how long has he been trying to kill the earl and when was the last time prior to this? was there a prior time or did it just start recently?

if the 14th's betrayal of the earl is a recent occurrence, i argue that something had to have changed for the 14th in order to go so against his own family. could it have been the fact that he had mana as a brother this time around and found that he didn't want to destroy humanity (because mana is a part of that world). could his love for mana have over-ruled all else?

i think cross was only half telling the truth when he said that the 14th just picked someone who was around. i think the 14th chose allen for a very specific reason: that being that he knew he couldn't defeat the earl without help...without innocence. he obviously failed in his attempt since the earl killed him so, knowing that his power wasn't enough as a noah, he chose allen in order to combine his strength with allen's. i think he believes that is the extra edge he needs in order to finally defeat the earl.

and i agree with rhode's post above in terms of the earl saying allen is not the host, but the 14th himself -- that he meant that the 14th would awaken fully and allen would no longer exist...essentially making him not just a vessel but the actual being that's taken over. the 14th called allen "a mad puppet" so i think he meant that allen was also being played. by whom, we don't know. but i think the 14th is more sympathetic to allen than we realize. after all, they shared mana and i believe the 14th loved mana exponentially more than the way tyki enjoys his human friends. i think neah actually experienced love and it made a huge impact. that's my theory anyway. so, allen is essentially his nephew (in a way) and, out of his deference for mana, i don't think the 14th would purposefully harm allen in any malicious way. allen receding so that the 14th can awaken is just a process that needs to happen and not something the 14th is doing becuase he's evil or hates allen. it's a means to an end...the end being the death of the earl.

so, long and the short of it for me, i don't think allen and the 14th are the same being. not at this point, anyway. i mean, who knows what allen (or red, or whatever he went by before he joined the circus) was like before his parents abandoned him? maybe we'll see that story some day. but the panel that has stayed with me is the chapter where komui is talking about what he's been able to find out about the 14th and he says that he traced the 14th back to a small house that belonged to an "an old man" and you see a large tent-like structure with all these lines and tubes running into it and then you see an outstretched arm on a bed (presumably neah's). who's the old man?! i thought about bookman for some reason but can't supply evidence as to why. maybe it's because he knows some details about it he won't even let lavi in on yet. secretive old panda!

anyway, interesting disucssion, guys. let's continue!

[Rhode]

lol, hi Sinamon!
I'll agree with everything you said with a few exceptions! :P

The idea that cross lied about why Neah picked him out... I will agree that perhaps you're right in Cross was likely not wanting to reveal the 14th's motives for choosing Allen. (Can you imagine how much more trouble he would have been in if Cross had said with all those guys listening!)

But i dont think that the 14th choose Allen for the innocence.. The recent events... Tyki's words of the two monsters... the Appocrapper... everything points that the innocence is'nt as great as we thought. The appocrapper wanted to keep Neah submerged within Allen by uniting... the Appocrapper works on behalf of the Heart, who is the leader/center of the innocence? So surely, the appocrapper's actions mirror the Hearts intentions, as well as Allens arm or Lenalees boots. Somehow, the innocence all share a goal, with different tasks to achieve the Heart's will.
Why would Neah benifit from choosing such a tricky host? The innocence wanted Allen to unite with the Appocrapper, so it's not like Allen's innocence is a rebel innocence, that wants to support Neah.

I like the idea of Neah being sympathetic towards Allen, because of their shared love of a dead man. But itsn't it more interesting if Neah, infact, hates Allen because of this? What if Neah dislikes Allen because of his time with Mana, because Allen made Mana an akuma? Wouldn't Neah have some hard feelings?

Why would the old man be a bookman? sure, they know lots? Maybe it was even Panda's master, long thought dead? But why not, if Neah can transplant himself, why could this old man be his last host? Idk, im just making stuff up now. Ahh well, talk later!

[Sinamon]

lol, But i dont think that the 14th choose Allen for the innocence.. The recent events... Tyki's words of the two monsters... the Appocrapper... everything points that the innocence is'nt as great as we thought. The appocrapper wanted to keep Neah submerged within Allen by uniting... the Appocrapper works on behalf of the Heart, who is the leader/center of the innocence? So surely, the appocrapper's actions mirror the Hearts intentions, as well as Allens arm or Lenalees boots. Somehow, the innocence all share a goal, with different tasks to achieve the Heart's will.

Why would Neah benifit from choosing such a tricky host? The innocence wanted Allen to unite with the Appocrapper, so it's not like Allen's innocence is a rebel innocence, that wants to support Neah.

I like the idea of Neah being sympathetic towards Allen, because of their shared love of a dead man. But itsn't it more interesting if Neah, infact, hates Allen because of this? What if Neah dislikes Allen because of his time with Mana, because Allen made Mana an akuma? Wouldn't Neah have some hard feelings?

Why would the old man be a bookman? sure, they know lots? Maybe it was even Panda's master, long thought dead? But why not, if Neah can transplant himself, why could this old man be his last host? Idk, im just making stuff up now. Ahh well, talk later!

hi rhode! :-) good to see you on this thread as well...

of course, the idea that neah chose allen on purpose for his innocence is just my opinion and totally conjecture. my thought on it is that neah failed to kill the earl before with his own abilities and thought that using innocence against the earl (which is what innocence is for anyway) might give him the advantage this time around since innocence is the anti-dark matter. there may be various other reasons why the 14th chose allen (though i think it was purposeful, i'm going to stick to that one -- it's too much of a coincidence to be one) but, for me, it makes sense strategy-wise for the 14th to want control over the a weapon (innocence) that could give help him be victory over the earl.

now, your point about allen's innocence not being a rebel innocence as well as tyki saying that allen's innocence and the noah within him both being monsters...

1.) i don't think all innocence is uniform or unilateral. in other words, i don't think that all innocence has a hive-mind mentality, just blindly following the Heart. i don't think the Heart is an over-mind innocence either where it controls all other innocence, though it does have it's own will and purpose. they say that if the Heart is destroyed, all innocence will also perish but that doesn't mean that the Heart controls it all. some innocence out there clearly don't follow the orthodox rules; allen's and lenalee's for specific examples. they have bonded so closely with their respective accommodators that they have increased their syncro rate with them, changed forms, evolved, and even saved their own accommodators lives of their own will. i think the bond between an exorcist's innocence can be so strong and close as to only exist for each other.

2.) following that logic, the apocryphos is a free innocence with no accommodator....and no strong emotional bond. it's only supposedly following the will of the Heart (this is questionable to me). So the apocryphos, to me, is a unbound, pragmatic being carrying out orders and no exorcist to give it a soul. allen used his innocence to attack the apocryphos. if the Heart, Apocryphos, and all inncoence were one, that would not have happened. it only happened because Allen's innocence is bonded with his own will and heart. I think i would say the same for Lenalee's innocence as well. so, no, i don't think the Heart shares the same will with all innocence. i think the strong bond with their accommodators makes them evolve and become closer to their hosts.

3.) and of course tyki thinks that innocence (whether it's the one in allen or the heart or the apocrapper lol) is a monster of sorts. innocence is the directly opposing force to dark matter so it's only natural that tyki thinks it's a horrible thing. but he also calls the noah with him a monster, knowing what the 14th wants to do and is capable of. so this is coming from tyki's point of view so i don't think we can just assume that ALL innocence is "monstrous" because tyki is obviously biased. i have a feeling tyki is implying that innocence in the wrong hands is monstrous...especially it's been twisted and corrupted by man and religion. i think this is funny because that's how i see the noah also: as beings that have been corrupted and twisted from their original intent of being a pure family of god.

so, as a result, maybe the 14th thought that if he controlled or took over allen, he could also take control of the innocence in allen and use it against the earl. now, if that ever happens, i think the 14th will be surprised at just how bonded allen is to his innocence and vise-versa. furthermore, i don't think allen will ever really lose himself to the 14th and the current journey he is on is going to help him find out how not to lose himself.

as for the 14th being spiteful of allen because of allen's relationship withi mana, i can also see that as a possibility and a dramatic plot point in the storyline. i just hope it isn't true. allen has had enough troubles and suffering and i would like to see the battle go his way a little bit. for all the interactions that neah has had with allen, it doesn't seem to point to a hostile or hateful attitude towards him. so i have hope that maybe...just maybe...they may actually work together to defeat the earl.

i have no idea what made me think of bookman during that scene when komui mentioned an "old man." it might have been because during that time, we were seeing how much info bookman seemed to be holding onto and that he knew WAY more than he let on. so if there was an "old man" involved in some conspiracy or secretive event that had to do with the 14th, my mind just went directly to bookman. he was sweating bullets when lavi was asking some hard questions (telepathically) and he refused to speak about it. and that was the same time komui mentioned the old man, his house, and the 14th so my brain just naturally went there. i have no real support for my brain wandering :-)

[Rhode]

to your first point
yes, they're not all of a single mind, but I think, like with Akuma, they share a purpose, and if willing, their leader (the Heart) can communitcate directly to them. But they still vary and have different methods and abilities. Btu in the end, like (forgot name) Krory's akuma, he innocence still have to do the Heart's will. There's no choice, no matter how strong the independant will has become.

To your second point, while it might be more complicated (and certainly is) akuma can kill each other. Why cant the innocence fight and destroy or merge with each other?

With three, I suspect that you're wrong. There was too much tension, and Tyki doesnt tend to say these things. I think he was quoting the Earl or something... Not his words, but some TRUE words... something deeper, perhaps someone more knowledgeable than the Earl.
I just dont think Tyki would go about sprouting his philosophical views of the innocence just to freak Allen out.

And you even mentioned how the innocence have their own, independant will. Why on earth, if Crown Clown would like to merge with the Appocrapper, work with Neah? crown Clown even disobeyed Allen's will - what makes you think that Crown clown wont try to turn on Neah, or at least retreat into a powerless, immobile arm, as before?

Maybe bookman merely visited the old man before? It's not unlikely if this old man had enough connections to the Noah to know anything about them. And Bookman was friendly with the last generation of Noah, after all.
Just thought. What if this old man was Mana/Neah's biological father? he'd surely know of his sons plans to overthrow the Earl? #
(remember, Mana and Neah are related physically [before Neah changed host], while Neah and the Earl are Noah brothers - just incase anyones confused!)