Heart theories

[Kaien]

After I read the whole heart theories thread I'll ended to be confused over and over again. *nosebleed*

there's so many possibilities of the heart's whereabouts, whose the host, and what kind of anti-akuma weapon it would be.

I believe that the heart is an innocence that bears an unbelievable power but in your opinion what is the higher chance could be the heart. Is it a..

-Parasitic Type or
-Equipment Type?

And why?

hopefully we can compress the theories little by little. =')

[Noir XIV]

I didn't read everyone else's theories but I'll just put up my thoughts:

I think the Heart will "evolve" to being a Heart. It's still unusual up until now what would what I say will really mean, but if there's a Heart on the Exorcist we know, it's most likely that it'll have to evolve. The story has shown a lot of evolutions and unusual sorts of events. It isn't as far-fetched as it is.

[shonen]

I've mentioned this in another thread...but I think Allen is the most probable candidate for the possessor of the heart because it would be so predictable that no one would excpect it. And the Earl made it clear that the heart has been awakened, and I feel that it has to be a character we already know, rather than someone yet to be announced. And Hevlaska prophesized Allen as being the destroyer of time, and I think it was Bookman who mentioned that "time" could refer to the "millenium" earl. But its definitely not the pope, katsura wouldn't be that cliche.

Also, the heart seems like such a complex substance, more so than your normal innocence. Where as a piece of innocence is purely just to combat the akuma and noah, the heart is much more, it has importance to both the exorcists and the noah. There is no black without white, no good without evil, so Allen being both an accomidator and a noah would play into the whole ying-yang relationship.

Addenza, you've made so many good points and come up with some interesting ideas, I'll do my best to quote you and anyone else I reference.

When Lenalee was sinking in the ocean during the fight with Eshi, she called out to him, and he somehow saw her (for like, a few seconds). I was wondering if this meant that Lenalee and Allen had some special telepathic abilites or something, but when the zombie arc came out, it really made me think that Allen has the Heart. Cause remember that time Krory woke up and called out to Allen too? Allen saw Krory! Okay, so it was a little different from the reality, but Allen saw him, though it was when he was unconscious. If this thing happens to everyone else, why didn't Lavi or Komui see Lenalee when she was calling out to them? And why didn't Lavi see Krory when he was calling out to them? So I think that Allen has the Heart, and Lenalee's innocence is a decoy.

I had thought it was strange that Allen always seemed to know when his friends were in distress. But I had never made the conncection that if the heart was inside of him, then the conncection that the heart has with all the other pieces of innocence would allow him to know when an accomidator of innocence was in peril.

Allen's innocence is also the only one to be complete destroyed and yet not dissappear. Others, i.e. Kanda and Lavi, have had their innocence severly damaged, but they always were able to gather the pieces so that the innocence could be reforged. Crown Clown, on the other hand, was broken down using Noah power and yet it would not leave its accomadator, and ended up saving Allen's life by healing his heart. Lenalee's innocence acted of its own to protect her, but was never really destroyed. Which brings me to...

And then, about the maximum invocation part. Allen was actually the first for the innocence to possess a will of its own and move to protect him. After that, Lenalee used maximum invocation and her innocence possessed a will of its own too. Well, from that time he resurrected Mana it already had a will of its own... So maybe it could be something like if the innocence fragments were to have any special evolutions (like possessing a will of its own), the Heart must be the one to take the lead?

I feel that while Allen's did move to protect him then, the really awakening of the heart would have occured with the Level 3 attacked the Asia branch and Allen first united with Crown Clown. Which occured after Lenalee was protected by her innocence. Before the appearance of Crown Clown, Allen had not really understood his innocence and therefore it only appeared as a unevolved, unstable version. I think the max invocation is only a reference to the fact that the exorcist uses the maximum amount of power they are capable of at one time. The protection of an accomidator by innocence would be unrelated in my opinion, and would make me think that the heart may be using Lenalee as a decoy.

Cause they said that this was a holy war between the Vatican and the Earl, which is something like a battle between the two sides who believe in their gods... And (forgive me if I'm wrong) God loves everyone equally, even the evil ones, right? And Allen loves everyone equally too (except for the Earl)... Is there any connection? That since God is very powerful, then Allen would be something like the messenger of God (other than being an Apostle) who would be granted stronger powers to be able to stop the evil. Or if you'll allow me to be more ridiculous, he's like God himself who has descended on Earth once again to save the people from their suffering by the hands of the Earl. Being so, Allen would be given the Heart. And since he has the 14th's memories within him, it would mean that he's more equipped than anyone else to be able to protect the Heart cause he can use his powers as the 14th (who is against the Earl too) when he can't use his innocence.

Allen has always been acknowledged as being unique in the fact that he is the only exorcist who is driven by his sympathy for the akuma. Most do not care what happens to the akuma, as long as they are destroyed, but Allen wants to free the souls of the humans that are bound to the akuma. He even gets upset when Rhode causes an akuma to self-destruct because when that happens the soul of the human is turned into dark matter and lost. All the other exorcists just want the akuma gone by any means.

Maybe, but remember what Apocrypha's role is: The guardian of the Heart.
This would mean this guardian innocence is special by it self to protect the Heart. It does not necessary means that the Heart is also like Apocrypha without Accomadator. In addition, remember what did the Noah said to Allen? Something like Apocrypha always showed up when they are close to the Heart. My guess is that Allen is the Heart or rather half of the Heart. How can Apocrypha sense where is the Heart unless Apocrypha has some kind of link to the Heart. Maybe half of the Heart itself. As previously mentioned, the Heart might be too powerful for a Accomodator, thus dividing into 2.
Lastly, the Earl did mentioned about the Heart has awakened. (I think is around the time when the 1st General was killed or maybe later.) This could mean that the Heart already has a Accomodator.

I've had this same feeling. If apocrypha sensed that Allen was falling into control of the 14th, then he would be driven to do whatever to protect the heart from coming under the 14th's control, even merging with Allen to strengthen his resolve.

And once again I am talking way too much and spending too much time composing one post. But thats just what DGM does to me. How much longer till 206!? >_<

[kalla]

I've mentioned this in another thread...but I think Allen is the most probable candidate for the possessor of the heart because it would be so predictable that no one would excpect it. And the Earl made it clear that the heart has been awakened, and I feel that it has to be a character we already know, rather than someone yet to be announced. And Hevlaska prophesized Allen as being the destroyer of time, and I think it was Bookman who mentioned that "time" could refer to the "millenium" earl. But its definitely not the pope, katsura wouldn't be that cliche.

Please don't let it be an Allen dies and rises again cliche either...

I had thought it was strange that Allen always seemed to know when his friends were in distress. But I had never made the conncection that if the heart was inside of him, then the conncection that the heart has with all the other pieces of innocence would allow him to know when an accomidator of innocence was in peril.

Komui always knows when something with Lenalee is going on if I remember correctly. Although it's just her.

I'm not arguing that Allen sees the Akuma differently, but is it really fair to say that the other exorcists just want them gone? As far as they knew, the soul cannot be saved only destroyed. So from that perspective, they are ending the soul's suffering and preventing more suffering in its death. Especially if it has been conditioned into them that the soul cannot be saved as it's heresy, they would be reluctant to jump on that band wagon. However, they aren't turning Allen in for it either. I'm not really disagreeing with the bit about Allen...just, I don't think it's that they do not care about the soul in the Akuma.

I understand what you are saying, but could the heart be some aspect of Allen's innocence?
If "it" awakened and other innocence fragments, like Lenalee's began behaving differently...is it perhaps not the innocence itself but something within it? Or is it maybe something inside all innocence and it just needed to "awaken" to come into being?
Also, if it was using Lenalee as a decoy, that would mean it was at least partially sentient...so could/is it manipulating Allen?
If the heart had been awakened, wouldn't that be a reason why Apocryphos would be able to sense the fragment--especially if that is what it is designed to do? (Meaning can it sense all fragments now that it has awakened?)

PS~I spend way too much time on posts too...obviously since I am quick to respond on the ones you resurrect. :P Also, don't you love responding to posts from two years ago? lol. Interesting to see which thoughts are the same and different.

[shonen]

I'm not arguing that Allen sees the Akuma differently, but is it really fair to say that the other exorcists just want them gone? As far as they knew, the soul cannot be saved only destroyed. So from that perspective, they are ending the soul's suffering and preventing more suffering in its death. Especially if it has been conditioned into them that the soul cannot be saved as it's heresy, they would be reluctant to jump on that band wagon. However, they aren't turning Allen in for it either. I'm not really disagreeing with the bit about Allen...just, I don't think it's that they do not care about the soul in the Akuma.

But it is common knowledge now that the soul in an akuma can only be saved by the akuma being destroyed by an exorcist. If the order didn't know about it before, they would after Allen's first encounter with Rhode. And Tiedoll even infers that he has knowledge of this information when he makes the comment about Allen being upset if he knew that Cross setup the modified akumas to self-destruct.

Regardless, this is not to say that some of the exorcists don't have some sort of sympathy for the akuma. I'm sure a number of them probably do to some extent; it just seems that Allen is the only one who would put himself at risk to save the soul of an akuma rather than let it self-destruct. That's what I was really trying to get at.

I understand what you are saying, but could the heart be some aspect of Allen's innocence?
If "it" awakened and other innocence fragments, like Lenalee's began behaving differently...is it perhaps not the innocence itself but something within it? Or is it maybe something inside all innocence and it just needed to "awaken" to come into being?
Also, if it was using Lenalee as a decoy, that would mean it was at least partially sentient...so could/is it manipulating Allen?
If the heart had been awakened, wouldn't that be a reason why Apocryphos would be able to sense the fragment--especially if that is what it is designed to do? (Meaning can it sense all fragments now that it has awakened?)

I don't believe that the heart could appear in any piece of innocence. I feel that it was a distinct fragment that was always the heart. Unfortunately, I don't have any supporting facts to back this opinion, it's just my gut feeling. ^_^

Allen is being influenced by the heart to some extent or another, just as the noah part of him is trying to gain influence. But I believe he has the power to overcome them, and once again, in doing will play into him deciding the path he will follow rather than letting some foriegn power create one for him (which seems to be one of the main themes of this manga).

I do think the heart's awakening is exactly why Apocryphos has appeared. With the heart aware of itself and its possessor, it is now able to call out to Aporcryphos. Whether Aporcryphos is actually carrying out the precise orders of the heart is still hazy, he could be using his own understanding to pervert the true mission of the heart. Or maybe we will find out the heart is actually a, forgive me for using this word, frienemy; that is out to stop the earl but, similar to the central office, will do so at the cost of the exorcist in possession of it.

PS~I spend way too much time on posts too...obviously since I am quick to respond on the ones you resurrect. :P Also, don't you love responding to posts from two years ago? lol. Interesting to see which thoughts are the same and different.

Haha, I'm actually a little sad that I'm going to have to be away from the forums for a little while cause I'm taking a mini-vacation for the 4th of July. But hopefully when I return many new comments will have been made for me to read and reply to ~_^.

[kalla]

But it is common knowledge now that the soul in an akuma can only be saved by the akuma being destroyed by an exorcist. If the order didn't know about it before, they would after Allen's first encounter with Rhode. And Tiedoll even infers that he has knowledge of this information when he makes the comment about Allen being upset if he knew that Cross setup the modified akumas to self-destruct.

Regardless, this is not to say that some of the exorcists don't have some sort of sympathy for the akuma. I'm sure a number of them probably do to some extent; it just seems that Allen is the only one who would put himself at risk to save the soul of an akuma rather than let it self-destruct. That's what I was really trying to get at.

Just because they now know about it doesn't mean they suddenly act different. A conditioned response takes a long time to undo. Plus, I doubt the exorcists shared this with everyone in the Order to protect Allen from being accused of heresy. Think of it like this, how many times do we hear about war and people being killed? We don't actually see it and we don't break down and cry every time it's on the news. It doesn't mean we don't think it's wrong or agree with the war or think those people should have died, but the impact hasn't truly changed us. I studied WWII a lot, my grandfather fought in it. It wasn't until I went to Normandie and saw all the graves that the gravity of what happened hit me. I knew it, it was sad, but I didn't really understand. As to Tiedoll's comment...and this is an assumption so I may be out on a limb...everyone can have contact with the order, so it would make sense--especailly for Tiedoll wanting to check on his "children"--for him to hear about Allen that way from Komui or Kanda. At that point Allen's been in the order a while and while they may not discuss Allen with higher ups in the order, it would make sense for the Generals to be aware or for Kanda to give reasons why he didn't like that "moyashi." Then again, the higher ups may know about the soul already, which is where Tiedoll's comment comes from, but I think in regards to Allen he got the information from people closer to Allen. Either way, I wasn't arguing that Allen sets himself apart by his thinking of the souls--he does. I just don't think it's fair to say the rest just want the akuma dead. :P

I don't believe that the heart could appear in any piece of innocence. I feel that it was a distinct fragment that was always the heart. Unfortunately, I don't have any supporting facts to back this opinion, it's just my gut feeling. ^_^

Allen is being influenced by the heart to some extent or another, just as the noah part of him is trying to gain influence. But I believe he has the power to overcome them, and once again, in doing will play into him deciding the path he will follow rather than letting some foriegn power create one for him (which seems to be one of the main themes of this manga).

I do think the heart's awakening is exactly why Apocryphos has appeared. With the heart aware of itself and its possessor, it is now able to call out to Aporcryphos. Whether Aporcryphos is actually carrying out the precise orders of the heart is still hazy, he could be using his own understanding to pervert the true mission of the heart. Or maybe we will find out the heart is actually a, forgive me for using this word, frienemy; that is out to stop the earl but, similar to the central office, will do so at the cost of the exorcist in possession of it.

lol @ frienemy. You don't always have to have evidence to feel the way you do about a theory--if you had proof it would be fact. :P Plus, intuition draws from many sources making it difficult to put our reasoning into words. People may argue, but if they're looking for a discussion they will try to figure out why you think that. We'll just have to wait and see. I haven't really decided what I think about it yet, but I don't think it will be exactly how we are thinking of it...or maybe I just hope it isn't that obvious. It's not so much a flaw in what you or anyone else has said as much as it feels a major piece of it is missing--and by piece I mean part of the plot, not the heart itself.

What I meant about Appocryphos (god I hate spelling that) is that the heart awakening kind of flipped his switch into protection mode and now he knows where all the fragments are, not just Allen's. Allen just happens also hold a Noah inside him so Appocrapper is going *danger danger* and wanting to "save" Allen's innocence. Even, as much as I hate to say this, Appocryphos could be like an Akuma on the reverse side...a machine-like being created for the sole purpose of protecting the heart at any cost, regardless of human life. Oh...that's a theory--akuma on both sides! I just hope there aren't more of him.

Haha, I'm actually a little sad that I'm going to have to be away from the forums for a little while cause I'm taking a mini-vacation for the 4th of July. But hopefully when I return many new comments will have been made for me to read and reply to ~_^.

Aww, well you know I will be responding because I love discussions and I'm actually having discussions with people who aren't my students. (Not that I mind my students at all, but...sometimes I need my own life lol.) Have fun and come back safely so you can discuss more with all of us! ^_~

[shonen]

Just because they now know about it doesn't mean they suddenly act different. A conditioned response takes a long time to undo. Plus, I doubt the exorcists shared this with everyone in the Order to protect Allen from being accused of heresy. Think of it like this, how many times do we hear about war and people being killed? We don't actually see it and we don't break down and cry every time it's on the news. It doesn't mean we don't think it's wrong or agree with the war or think those people should have died, but the impact hasn't truly changed us. I studied WWII a lot, my grandfather fought in it. It wasn't until I went to Normandie and saw all the graves that the gravity of what happened hit me. I knew it, it was sad, but I didn't really understand. As to Tiedoll's comment...and this is an assumption so I may be out on a limb...everyone can have contact with the order, so it would make sense--especailly for Tiedoll wanting to check on his "children"--for him to hear about Allen that way from Komui or Kanda. At that point Allen's been in the order a while and while they may not discuss Allen with higher ups in the order, it would make sense for the Generals to be aware or for Kanda to give reasons why he didn't like that "moyashi." Then again, the higher ups may know about the soul already, which is where Tiedoll's comment comes from, but I think in regards to Allen he got the information from people closer to Allen. Either way, I wasn't arguing that Allen sets himself apart by his thinking of the souls--he does. I just don't think it's fair to say the rest just want the akuma dead. :P

I think I need to do some back pedalling here cause I have explained myself very poorly, haha. I completely agree that exorcists have been brought up to believe that akuma are evil entities that must be destroyed. And that sudden knowledge about the plight of the human soul in an akuma wouldn't necessarily be enough to change this train of thought. I can't help but think I would probably have a similar reaction if I was faced with a similar situation. And Allen does have an unfair advantage (?) because Mana's curse allows him to see the souls in akuma and therefore he can never ignore the reality of the situation.

I was merely referencing the degree of sympathy felt for akuma throughout the order. On one extreme you have people such as Kanda and Chaoji who see akuma as inhuman monsters meant to be destroyed. Then there are the people in between, people like Tiedoll and possilby Komui who understand the human soul bound to akuma but their sympathy only goes so far. Then Allen is on the other extreme, where he empathizes with the akuma and longs to help them. I guess this could also be easily argued as coorelation vs. causation. But we can all agree, that when it comes to akuma, Allen is just "weird like that" haha.

lol @ frienemy. You don't always have to have evidence to feel the way you do about a theory--if you had proof it would be fact. :P Plus, intuition draws from many sources making it difficult to put our reasoning into words. People may argue, but if they're looking for a discussion they will try to figure out why you think that. We'll just have to wait and see. I haven't really decided what I think about it yet, but I don't think it will be exactly how we are thinking of it...or maybe I just hope it isn't that obvious. It's not so much a flaw in what you or anyone else has said as much as it feels a major piece of it is missing--and by piece I mean part of the plot, not the heart itself.

If everyone of my ideas and theories were wrong, I would be extremely happy. It's my hope, that the real explanation is so grand and complex that while I'm reading the manga my jaw will drop in disbelief at the amazing connections and hidden plot components. I would love to believe that Katsura's level of thinking is so far beyond us, that we could never guess the real explanations. And I will continue to stand by this dream until it is either held up in triumph or crushed under resentment and selfpity haha.

Aww, well you know I will be responding because I love discussions and I'm actually having discussions with people who aren't my students. (Not that I mind my students at all, but...sometimes I need my own life lol.) Have fun and come back safely so you can discuss more with all of us! ^_~

I'm just glad to have these discussions period. None of my friends are really into the anime/manga thing. So this is my only outlet for these thoughts and questions.

And thanks for the concern. I'll be looking forward to more thought provoking comments that will inspire me to write more novels on forum threads. (though this one was pretty short in comparison) ^_^

[kalla]

Chaoji definitely feels that way towards akuma. I don't know about Kanda...I honestly don't think he thinks that far (which sounds horrible especially since he's my favorite character, but I do think it's at least somewhat accurate). But yes, throughout the order the general sentiment that is presented is they must be destroyed.

I have only one friend interested in anime/manga and she hasn't seen/read this one so I can't discuss it with her. I was posting my livejournal but no one reads it except me I think so it's nice to be somewhere to have actual discussions. :P I agree, I hope Katsura has something in line that we haven't thought of regarding the heart and the rest of the plot.