Mana's curse?

[Rhode]

*sigh* I put that wrong.

I'll just give up arguing for now. It's so exhausting! XD

Just thought. If our subject was something else, like media, or some ethical debate - we'd make great politicans? XD Imagine, President of USA, Sinamon, and PM, Rhode!

meeeh, I'm so gonna go off topic if I'm on this thread much longer!

eeh! You forgot the joke! :P
"If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong."

[Sinamon]

haha! president sinamon and prime minister rhode -- we'd call for a crucial closed-door meeting of the two nations to discuss integral matters of state....and then just watch episodes of d.gray-man together lol

oh yes, i forgot the joke! okay here's one....

"a bunny and a bear are taking a poop in the forest.
the bear turns to the bunny and asks if he ever has problems with poop sticking to his fur.
the bunny says no, he doesn't.
the bear wipes his butt with the bunny."

[Rhode]

XD sooner or later, this is just going to turn into a thread with a war of the best jokes

So if you were Hoshino, what would you make Mana's curse to be, and how would the readers find out?

For me, it's surely got to be something dark and troubiling for Allen (or at least, a shock for us, but Allen can accept it). Drawn out for the longest period of time... maybe some character to claim one thing, but the truth is another. How'd you write DGM, or what'd you like to happen?

joke;
"Who decided that a round pizza should be put in a square box?"
And wisdom for the day ~ "Regardless of the temptation, don't lick a steak knife." XD (I did that once!)

[kalla]

Woah! *cough* Hm...many fine writers use foreshadowing...but maybe I misunderstood? It sounds like you're saying no author worth anything ever uses foreshadowing. Is what you are saying is that when a good author uses foreshadowing--or when it is used properly--it is done so that the reader realizes it was foreshadowing immediately because the author takes them back to that moment and expands so the reader is realizing the connection just as the character in the story is, perhaps? Or maybe that the story is not contingent upon that one piece without it being pointed out that it is important? When I have read crappy foreshadowing it is either haphazard in its existence or it is half-you-know-what. It seems to be used not so much as a plot device but as filler or to solidify a compromised plot-line. If it is used correctly, it is either deeply seeded throughout the entire plot so you cannot avoid it, or it is used to bring about a pivotal character development that you experience with the character--used to draw the reader into the story further, not because of shoddy writing, but because as humans we remember what we experience better than what we read. In other words if we feel the "ah-ha" moment with the character the connection is stronger. It is still foreshadowing--to show or indicate beforehand. I do agree however, it is often misused and overused greatly at that. It's just that I think that is the author and not the device. (I wouldn't want to say Shakespeare, Chaucer, Austen and many others were using cheap tricks to make up for crappy writing.)

As for the eye keeping Allen separate from the 14th, I don't think that's it personally. I feel what keeps that separation is Allen's true personality; his bond to friends, memories, etc. When he loses himself he isn't brought back by the eye but by "moyashi" or hearing Lenalee say good morning to him.

As for the skull/curse...I suppose Allen could be "hearing" Mana's voice with the skull because that is what he wishes to hear or what he is being manipulated to hear, but I don't really think that's it. I don't really think it's Mana's soul either however. Perhaps a better way to say it is maybe the skull is Allen's memories of Mana, not Mana's actual soul. I feel like maybe the curse is feeding off of Allen's soul or his own memories; in some ways Allen is kind of trapped inside himself but maybe as his character progresses I will feel less that way. There is something missing that I can't put my finger on as to why I feel that way...

A lot of religions and people believe that once the spirit is released from the body, whatever maladies plagued them in life are shed. If this is the case, Mana would no longer be affected by his madness when he is put in the Akuma. It is entirely possible that he wanted to ensure Allen understood why he should never commit that act again. I doubt that Mana would be thinking Allen was going to be an exorcist and this would be a helpful addition or anything like that. Mana would however, have known of his brother. He obviously knew enough to teach Allen the score so it might be that the curse is somehow tied in with either Allen realizing who he is or to protect Allen from who he is. I don't really know what I think other than conjecture on that idea yet.

[Rhode]

errm, thats what I thought Sinamon was suggesting too. You made a good case though.

What do you mean 'Moyashi?' (I hope a translater didn't miss out something again! - I get that a lot!)

I see what you mean, Kalla. The idea of memories, though, is something I might have to argue as when would Mana have told Allen, as a way of getting him to later 'go deeper into the world of black and white' when Allen was in danger, in ordinary Circus life? It's not Mana's soul (for how would it be tethered to Allen?) but something consious, aware of Allen's situation told him something that would work. My only way of answering this is to say that it was Neah, who was consious, who told Allen to see the akuma again and be able to fight.
It might be because Neah wants Allen alive, or because he'd rather not die before he took over his host. I'll add to this theory when we know more about Neah.

As a side point, when Allen met Mana, Mana didn't look mad? Weird, yes, but he was dressed as a clown. We know that Cross was holding something back when he spoke to Allen, so could he have made up that part about Mana? What do you guys think?

Back to your post, Kalla, is sanity in the body, or the soul? When a person is in such a stressful situation and their mind 'breaks', would they really be cured of this if their 'soul' left their body? Some madness is of the body (like Alzhiemer's is), but surely a person's judgement, their choices in life and their thought process - is it not part of the soul that makes them unique, that holds their personality?
(btw, I'm not really arguing, but if you say that all madness is physical etc, and you have a logical reason for it, that'd be nice to hear ;P)
Ohhh, and nice point about the score! (I'll add that to my theory! XD)

[kalla]

Ah, sorry. Moyashi is breansprout. :P

Well, by memories I mean it was a curse coming from Mana. I don't have personal experience with curses but they seem to not follow strict logic in a lot of stories, so it's just an idea. I do think whatever it is, is feeding off of Allen's soul or Allen's personal memories or something, but maybe that's just my take on Allen being eroded away until the 14th takes over. I do wonder if the curse was to protect Allen from himself.

What I mean by his maddness...this world is finite, the soul is not. The idea is what when we are released of our body, our soul returns to be part of God/part of universal consciousness/makes us whole or complete again/whatever your philosophy fancies. In that sense, when we come here we are somehow not complete to begin with and when we return, whatever was of this world dies with our body. Why would the spiritual plane be the same as the physical plane? Why then would we come here to experience a physical life? The idea is that our soul remembers and knows what our body does not. If you believe or are comfortable with reincarnation, this knowledge is carried to each life, but is not accessible most of the time or at least not in its entirety. (Like Kanda's memories; they're snapshots, but he doesn't have access to all that's behind them or his past.)

On a non-spiritual level, scientists can often point out brain activity that is different from the norm in people who are insane or having an episode. Take schizophrenics for example. They become caught up and fixated because there is like an electrical cloud in the brain and the electrical impulses don't function the same way because of it. (Really watered down and crappy explanation, but hopefully it made sense.) If we can physically show something is different during madness, even if we don't understand it fully, it would thus be a physical malady. At least in my opinion. Fifty years ago we never would have thought something like that was possible, but now it exists. I think a lot of maladies that we don't understand are the same way--we may not have found a way to document the cause or anything, but eventually we will. When the body dies, so would the malady as it exists on this plane. The soul would then return to its spiritual state.

Also, a lot of religions believe when we die we are at peace from suffering. This wouldn't be possible if the soul took the malady with it...the suffering would continue. The thoughts, choices, etc. would be retained, but that is not madness in itself. The "clouds" would be what caused the madness. The thoughts may not be as evolved as another's no, but the insanity wouldn't necessarily be there as there would no longer be anything to prevent the thought from functioning normally.

[Rhode]

XD this is going to be a random reply with questions for the sake of questions - so I hope I'm not too annoying.

ahhh, I'll remember that.
We talk about it feeding off Allen, but does a curse really need to feed off anything? Does it need energy - or anything - to sustain itself? As you said, curses don't tend to follow any certain rules or hold much logic for their existance.
What if the curse is there for the opposite reason? Rather than to protect Allen, it's actually there to protect Neah? Like when the eye healed itself - it was to save Neah's future host? When the curse stopped the awakening process, was it because the cercimstances werent right?

Ok, I understand your oppinion (similar to mine). In that case, you might be right. Hoshino might believe differently and not follow that idea

Still, your point on seeing something means that it's only physical? I believe that we could both name a dozen things that are seen, but aren't all thought to be without spiritual capacity.

I still argue that can't a soul itself turn mad? Many believe that a soul can become tainted, or corrupt. Can it go insane? (be it what happened to Mana or not, it's an interesting idea).

ahh, but is insanity truely suffering? Some people are quite happy with it, and surely all the knowledge of the world/any spiritual memories cannot always make the soul happier than when it was insane?

And what if these 'clouds' in the brain were actually by-products of an insane soul? (unlikely to me, but I'd like to see your reasoning).

[kalla]

Well, I suppose that depends on the nature of the curse. It may or may not need to "feed off of" something, but it does need the cursed to stay alive to maintain itself in most cases. (Unless it's like a family line is cursed or something.)

I don't recall the curse stopping the Noah from awakening; I remember him being stopped by Kanda calling him moyashi. I guess the reason I don't feel the curse is to protect Neah is because Mana said to Allen that he loved him and used Allen's name. And I'm not sure that Mana would know what was going to happen in regards to Neah and his "awakening" enough to do something. I'm not sure he would hurt Allen to protect Neah with a curse...if he was going to do that he would have before he died, especially given his mental state.

The idea of a soul going insane is interesting, but I personally do not believe it. I think this is something that is rooted in one's spiritual beliefs. (The clouds in the brain are electrical impulses sent between neurons and the neurons get stuck in a kind of communication loop, causing the person to fixate on the idea/hallucination/obsession/etc.) I do not connect the spirit with the brain as the brain is part of the body and is not significantly different enough from others for me to say it makes the individual. Much like I don't look like someone else, but I don't associate that with my spirit--that is the body and of the physical realm. What drives my body, brain and all, is the soul. The soul makes me who I am. I liken it to if I took medicine that made me very loopy, that would not mean the medicine made my soul loopy; just my body. It is a temporary state. Once the medicine is out of my system or my system ceases to function, that state is over.

I can get into exactly what I believe if you want, but that might be better for a private chat conversation as I don't want to sound like I'm preaching. I have often wondered if the insane were truly suffering. Ignorance is bliss they say, and while I understand and it appears to be true on the outside, I don't fully agree with that either. I liken it to an Akuma. They may be unable/unaware of their confinement but the soul knows. Even for those who are clearly disturbed individuals, I do not think their souls are. I think the soul is neutral but what becomes corrupt is the lifetime and choices in the physical world. (their brains are often different too by the way) I do wonder if those individuals however have a soul at all, or if the bond between soul and mind is incomplete--I have seen the eyes of someone like that once and I will never forget it. He was perhaps the most Akuma-like thing I have seen; there was nothing behind his eyes, not even malice. He was nine years old and I was scared of him. I cried because I felt on some level he was suffering for this state...it is very difficult to explain so hopefully that makes some sense. Maybe I am just incapable of understanding. But while we are in this realm I feel the soul and mind are merged, but when our body dies, yes the mind dies with it and the soul returns to the spiritual realm. Unfortunately we don't have, at least that I know of, a way to scientifically prove what happens when we die or to document the composition of a soul.